War Scribes

And where in that did I tell you to rewrite Hektor's page? I'm simply stating you need to put more into your descriptions. You want him to be Napoleonic? Fine. Show us Napoleonic with more than a couple vague sentences. Give us details about how he drills his troops. Tell us how he features lines of men marching into battle. Give us more to chew on.

Rogerius Merrill wrote:And where in that did I tell you to rewrite Hektor's page? I'm simply stating you need to put more into your descriptions. You want him to be Napoleonic? Fine. Show us Napoleonic with more than a couple vague sentences. Give us details about how he drills his troops. Tell us how he features lines of men marching into battle. Give us more to chew on.

So you're definitely not telling me to change the page but you certainly demand that I change it. I like this, Merrill. You should come out with the stark raving lunatic stuff more often, it's very entertaining.

First point: I'm slightly amused and disappointed to see this argument happening, because this almost exact same debate has happened before, with similarly antagonistic lingo used. Different legions, same effect. Come on guys.

Second point: I'll make the same statement I did last time this kind of argument cropped up: why does it matter?
Who's to say two legions can't have similar fighting styles? Least of which being if one is loyalist and one is traitor. The OU was rife with that. Multiple legions were just generalists who's battle doctrine espoused their "brilliant leadership"...which is something *every* primarch can boast. Look at the Dark Angels and the Smurfs, for example. On the battlefield they operate mostly the same. Certainly there are no more differences there than what this thread has said between the Scribes and the Heralds.
The important factor in distinguishing the legions isn't always their doctrine on the battlefield, but their culture and personal carriage among their own ranks, or with their peers and the citizens of the Imperium. In that capacity I daresay the Scribes and Heralds are very distinct indeed. This quibbling isn't worth it, especially since the basis for the argument is a trivial one in the first place.

Lumey wrote:So you're definitely not telling me to change the page but you certainly demand that I change it.  I like this, Merrill.  You should come out with the stark raving lunatic stuff more often, it's very entertaining.

...And the line has been crossed. First, semantics are important. Just so we're on the same page:

Merriam-Webster Dictionary wrote:Rewrite:  :  to make a revision of (as a story) :  cause to be revised: as
a :  to put (contributed material) into form for publication
b :  to alter (previously published material) for use in another publication

I have not asked you to make any revisions under the aforementioned definition. In the course of this conversation, the word rewrite has been used a total of 9 times in this conversation (not counting the uses in this post). Bold has been used to highlight the use. They are as follows:

Arelex Orannis wrote:I've had to rewrite them several times, first pulling them away from their archaeotech use, and later pulling them away from being antagonistic to the AdMech.

Lumey wrote:In fact, Der Alte Fritz's origin story is Primarch tier, though it would be quite a rewrite from Arelex.

Lumey wrote:So are you saying that my writing wasn't obvious enough, that I needed to have eagles, three grades of guard, etc. to really ram the source material down the reader's throat? Or are you saying that the Heralds should be subjected to another rewrite to make them more obviously something else instead?

There was a quote of your statement which does not need reposting.

Uriel wrote:Not sure why you think people are calling for rewrites of the First, as to my knowledge, that has yet to come up.

Merrill wrote:Yeah, neither have I suggested rewrites nor have I stated you need to ram the source material down the reader's throat.

Lumey quotes Uriel, using the word again

Merrill wrote:And where in that did I tell you to rewrite Hektor's page?

Now, that being said, here's the "stark raving lunatic" comments of which you speak:

Merrill wrote:Not sure I follow the logic about Hektor being Napoleonic. I read the tactics, a few other bits of organization, and Hektor's bio, and didn't really see a lot. There's the allusion with "Hektor is really good at reading terrain." and "Hektor loves mobile artillery." But aside from that, it's really vague. That could be just about any general since the addition of wheeled carriages to cannons.

I figured a better model to follow would have been Hannibal of Carthage, or Uriel mentioned Scipio Africanus.

So, where is the drooling lunacy in that? It may be a bit blunt, but maybe it's because I'm too crazy to recognize the insanity of stating that the references to him using Napoleonic formations were rather scant/vague/obscure? Well, maybe I'll see it more clearly in the next one:

Merrill wrote:Yeah, neither have I suggested rewrites nor have I stated you need to ram the source material down the reader's throat. But if you want to get offended while we're trying to work out the existing issues with another Legion, go right ahead. My suggestion is that if you wanted to be uppity about taking Napoleonic themes, reference the source material in ways that do not require a history degree to interperet. In your words, if it's not on the wiki, it doesn't count. And Hektor's tactics page is about as nondescript as you can get. So I would suggest discussing this in a more open discussion method rather than immediately assuming we're out to get you.

Hrm. It's significantly more heated. That's a fact. But still not seeing any real insanity here. Just a repeated request to go into more detail about the Heralds in the tactics page and a couple insults that are par for the course of this project. And rather tame for our boards at that. Alright, moving on:

Merrill wrote:And where in that did I tell you to rewrite Hektor's page? I'm simply stating you need to put more into your descriptions. You want him to be Napoleonic? Fine. Show us Napoleonic with more than a couple vague sentences. Give us details about how he drills his troops. Tell us how he features lines of men marching into battle. Give us more to chew on.

Okay. Still heated. still arguing same point. We don't need a complete revision. But if you want to hold the torch for the Napoleonic themes, it could use a little more in there. I haven't been asking you for a whole new page. I haven't been asking you to write the Heralds all over again. Hell, I even had a discussion with Arelex that this could fit, as he would have learned how to be a general primarily from Hektor. So it would make sense for him to use similar methods (though without the same strategic/tactical genius). That being said, what I have asked of you is the same thing you have asked of everybody here:

Expand your ideas. For the record:

Mirriam-Webster Dictionary wrote:Expand:
1 :  to open up :  unfold
2 :  to increase the extent, number, volume, or scope of :  enlarge
3 a :  to express at length or in greater detail
b :  to write out in full <expand all abbreviations>
c :  to subject to mathematical expansion <expand a function in a power series>

You have always been the first to criticize others. And that's what this has been. A rather mild critique of a small section of your work. I never said it was bad. I never said it needed to be scrapped. I said it needed development. To which you acted like a child being punished. Or pretty much everybody here when we got our first criticisms. I'm disappointed in this. I expected better of you. That being said, if you wish to continue this discussion/argument, I recommend starting a Heralds of Hektor thread. Or moving it to Hektor's page. We have wasted enough time on Arelex's page.

The Wayward Guardsman wrote:First point: I'm slightly amused and disappointed to see this argument happening, because this almost exact same debate has happened before, with similarly antagonistic lingo used. Different legions, same effect. Come on guys.

I know. I thought that was the purpose behind Uriel's cheat-sheet for themes: we'd make it ultra-clear to other writers what source material was being used where. The only thing in this that has made me angry is that Uriel "forgot" about his own sensible idea.

Second point: I'll make the same statement I did last time this kind of argument cropped up: why does it matter?
Who's to say two legions can't have similar fighting styles? Least of which being if one is loyalist and one is traitor. The OU was rife with that. Multiple legions were just generalists who's battle doctrine espoused their "brilliant leadership"...which is something *every* primarch can boast. Look at the Dark Angels and the Smurfs, for example. On the battlefield they operate mostly the same. Certainly there are no more differences there than what this thread has said between the Scribes and the Heralds.

I'm not sure that the Dark Angels Legion fought exactly the same way that the Ultramarines Legion did. Regardless, the reason for it mattering is that the historical material will inevitably be used for more than just organisation and tactics. Exemplary battles are usually reworked or reskinned historical battles, and it makes sense to stick to the same sources. Simply put: there's more than enough history to divide up between 18 legions, let's not stumble over one another unnecessarily.

Merrill wrote:the line has been crossed...

I'm going to treat that post as a joke, if a weak one.

Lumey wrote:The only thing in this that has made me angry is that Uriel "forgot" about his own sensible idea.

If that genuinely got you angry, so be it. I apologised, and I will apologise again now.

Firstly, the Heralds as they stand right now, have a single definably Napoleonic reference, that being Napopleons Flying Batteries.
Everything else that is actually on the page is ubiquitous with literally every period before that, and even arguably, up until the last century. There is no detectable theme present.

Secondly, I did not suggest "Napoleonic" to Arelex, I proposed "19th Century warfare", with a focus on the long 19th century, specifically the British and Prussians in the age of Empire, and the Industrial revolution.
However, I wasn't telling Arelex what he should or could write, as that has not helped him in the past.

Thirdly, as stated in my first post, if it was an issue - ie if there is significant and problematic overlap - then that's okay, we'll go back to the drawing board and work something else out.

Instead of that happening, we've had several days (posting is slow) where the thread has been derailed for arguments that have veered off the issue at hand, and nothing productive was achieved.

That isn't like you. Sure, you are usually acerbic and blunt, but you normally have a point to your actions. If something outside the project is causing you distress, I'm genuinely sorry that you're going through that.
If that is not the case; if all this was literally over someone (me), who is intensely busy with irl right now, forgetting a single thing in a long-standing volunteer project, then I think you might need to see a psychiatrist.

But, how about we set this shit-spiral aside now, and get back to productive discussion?
Even if shit has to be argued out, lets make it productive at least, eh guys?

Gentlemen, gentlemen.

I hate to come into a middle of a conversation speaking just to shut it down, but guys. Seriously. This is a non-issue. No offense was meant by any side, but each side keeps perceiving insult.

It's maddening from someone on the outside to see these actions spiral out of control. We should all take a step back and reconsider ourselves, and wipe away all assumptions.

The fact of the matter is, Arelex wants to revamp the Scribes because he feels they're not focused enough and up to snuff. He's put in a lot of work, and wants to make sure it comes out well.

What someone said to suggest about this or that and how it affects something else in another Legion possibly is not worth throwing out insults, analyzing and replying to each line in replies, and generally becoming hostile to one another.

We're here to write, and receive feedback, and improve ourselves as authors. Let's not forget this, and keep it in mind whenever we come into a situation like this again.

Alex, the substantial issue is on thematic clarity. Uriel's cheat-sheet was a good idea. I subscribed to it in good faith. It wasn't referenced here and that's annoying, and doubly so because Uriel keeps trying to tell me that I didn't make it clear that I was using Napoleonic themes.

For the last time: I told you all that I was using Napoleonic themes on the cheat sheet. Stop trying to tell me that I didn't do that because you don't like the current implementation. Everything in the project is WIP.

And Uriel - how dare you "apologise", tell me I need therapy, and then propose to be constructive? If you want to throw insults - fine. But don't pretend that you're making peace at the same time. If you aren't prepared to offer a genuine apology, we are through.

Lumey wrote:Uriel keeps trying to tell me that I didn't make it clear that I was using Napoleonic themes.

I haven't said you didn't make it clear. My initial post said those themes weren't apparent in the text. Ie - you may want to expand on it.
Which is nothing different to that which you yourself have said many times to others.

Lumey wrote: I told you all that I was using Napoleonic themes on the cheat sheet. Stop trying to tell me that I didn't do that because you don't like the current implementation. Everything in the project is WIP.

Again, no-one is saying you didn't tell us you were using Napoleonic themes.

The points raised have been literally, 'its currently not clear that they are Napoleonic inspired.'
Its WIP? Fine, we all have WIP stuff.
The content of what had been said was feedback counselling expanding upon that. No-one has said "You can't do this because its not on the page yet", have they?

Lumey wrote:And Uriel - how dare you "apologise", tell me I need therapy, and then propose to be constructive? If you want to throw insults - fine. But don't pretend that you're making peace at the same time. If you aren't prepared to offer a genuine apology, we are through.

I'd like to redirect you to my first post on the matter:

Uriel Starikov wrote:But with that said, if it's actually an issue, then forget it. I'm trying to help Arelex get to where he wants/wanted the Scribes to be in a way that works. We'll just go back to the drawing board, no harm no foul.

In my first post I literally said, if its an issue, we'll go back to the drawing board and leave it at that.

What followed was a bunch of arguing between anons that was unnecessary, and included yourself insulting Merrill, after going super-defensive on his first post informing you the theme isn't apparent in the Heralds right now.

If you see me as owing you an apology, you owe Merrill one too.

Lumey wrote:If you aren't prepared to offer a genuine apology

For the third and final time. I am genuinely sorry.
I forgot. I'm sorry about that, as if i hadn't we could have avoided this, but it wasn't intentional. Life is rather hectic for me right now, its understandable I'd forget something eventually.
And why would I apologise at all if I didn't mean it?
There's no point in doing so.

This has all been a massive misunderstanding, and if my first post had been taken for what it was, and not had the "i don't see the overlap" comment taken out of context, i can't see how we would have ended up here.

I never even suggested specifically 'Napoleonic' scribes to Arelex in the first place. His going french with it was not an advised move, but equally, by forgetting the cheatsheet, it wasn't his fault for doing so, but mine.

We have multiple tank legions, multiple siege legions, multiple sneaky legions etc just like the OU.
I don't see how 19th century tactics and specifically Napoleonic tactics would be any different in that regard, the benefit here being the 2 in question have strong links that would be strengthened by a shared understanding (Arelex being taught by/spending time with Hektor)


So in an effort to bring some clarity to my original points:

The Heralds, need some expanding on their themes to make it clearer they are Napoleonic to the reader.

The Scribes, could be a mix up of late 18th century warfare a la Sweden and Prussia (gunlines and disciplined formations, no focus on mobile artillery), and mid-late 19th Century Britain (large fleets, industry&empire, logistics, no flying batteries) with bits of other countries throughout the long 19th century thrown in to break up the definable edges of the underlying theme. (this seems moot right now as from what I understand from Skype, the idea has been abandoned due to this threads shitshow, which I do think is ridiculous, but whatever)

If thats still a problem somehow, as said in the first post; we'll go back to the drawing board and move the fuck on.

Uriel wrote:(more tactical "apologies" mingled in with finger-pointing and scolding)

Understood.

Lumey wrote:Tactical apologies

Are you for real? You have to be trolling me now, if so good job!

I apologised 3 times. One time i admittedly let my temper get the best of me, and let a barb slip in (which you yourself are guilty of in other a hundred different examples in the last year), but the other 2 times, including the very first post I made after becoming aware of my mistake, it was genuine.
It was totally ignored.
So clearly this is some kind of joke right?
You're not that much of an asshole to demand an apology, then when you surprisingly get yet another one, to spit it out as another insult because it wasn't grovelling and snivelling, right?

Lumey wrote: finger-pointing and scolding

Uriel wrote:it wasn't his fault for doing so, but mine.

Uriel wrote:I forgot. I'm sorry about that, as if i hadn't we could have avoided this

Yep definitely looks like I'm blaming everyone else, and not owning up to making a mistake that caused this.
That seems to be totally accurate.

Its not like I tried to elucidate my side of this misunderstanding to highlight where things went wrong (aside from my forgetting), and proposed a solution. That would be ludicrous to attempt.

But whatever, have fun with whatever game you're playing, I'll leave you to it.

Second idea for the Scribes: Clan Jade Scribes + "1000 bomber raid" Bombing of Cologne + Wandering Nomad Grand Fleet of Archaeotech Hunters.

The overall structure of the Legion is a mighty fleet, the largest of any Legion by far, rather than a Legion which holds planets directly. A Fleet-Based Chapter, writ Legion sized. Probably only Atalantos itself is a permanent recruiting world. The fleet will have its own forge-ships, permitting me to disentangle the Scribes from the Mechanicus. My personal desire is to have 10 large "Supercarriers" which are the flagships, each leading 10% of the Legion's forces in combat groups. This is in emulation of the USA's 10 Supercarriers currently afloat.

Most of the time, the Legion approaches problems calmly, coldly and deliberately, preserving their aggression for the "Moment of Need", whereupon they strike with all possible force in a Shock and Awe methodology. A slow, methodic stranglehold, followed by a swift, sharp breaking of the enemy army's "neck" and shattering it completely.

Their overall strategy is predicated around constraining the enemy's movements, first with their fleet, pinning the enemy to individual planets, then with their Aerospace units, confining the enemy to individual cities and bunkers, then with their Marines, forcing the enemy to fight as isolated units in house to house, street to street, room to room fights where the individual superiority of the Astartes can be used for maximum effect.


Basic summary of Order of Battle:

Stage Primus: Large Naval Fleet. Emphasis on Carriers over Battleships. At the outset of almost every battle, liberal use of Orbital Bombardment is applied.

Stage Secundus: Large Aerospace Force. Carriers launch Thunderhawks and other Imperial Aerospace vehicles. Air superiority is thus achieved, any enemy forces not in hardened cover are open to heavy attack from all angles. Concentrated AA batteries are targeted by more Orbital Bombardment when they expose themselves for firing.

Stage Secundus Beta: Confinement Forces. To free the heavy aircraft from containment duties so they may focus on worthier targets, Land Speeders, Javelins, and Jetbike Squadrons are deployed around the combat perimeter. Their role is to herd the enemy into kill zones, and pick off isolated fragments of enemy forces.

Stage Tertius: Deployment of Marines. Thunderhawks and other transports begin deploying Marines into the remaining enemy strong points. Assault Marines drop directly into the fight. Devastators, Tactical Marines, Terminators, Centurions and Dreadnoughts deploy when the Thunderhawks land. Preference is given to short ranged, heavy firepower weaponry like Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers.

Stage Quaternus: Close Quarters Combat. Once inside the enemy fortifications, preference will be given to breaching walls to open up unexpected angles of attack. Kill boxes will be bypassed, picket squads overrun, and support systems like power supplies and sensors targeted for destruction. This phase of combat is to be prosecuted single-mindedly and with haste, driving forward into the enemy's center before proper resistance can be organized.

Stage Quintus: Mop-Up Operations and Redeployment. Captains will dispatch individual Squads as needed to purge the enemy facilities, and identify any important artifacts, relics, or information stores for Legion retrieval. They will also be responsible for immediate execution of any remaining defenders. The remainder of the Legion will retire to the Thunderhawks and consult with Legion Command for assignment to other operational zones.

Stage Auxilius: Deployment of Specialty Units. If circumstances demand, heavy armored vehicles and artillery will be summoned from the fleet's reserves, in accordance with the needs of the moment.



All these units are backed by as much technological prowess as the Scribes can muster, and their databases of lore serve them well, dispersed across the 10 Carrier Groups so that nothing might be lost again. Their forges make up for not being planetary in scale with being highly efficient and very advanced. To further increase their efficiency, the forges are staffed by well-educated and highly motivated Chapter Serfs and some of the more mechanically talented Scribes, rather than servitors and slave-laborers as other industrial centers often are. The Chapter Serfs are held in great esteem by the Scribes, for it is by their tireless efforts that the Marines can do their work with the knowledge that all will be well behind them. Without their rear-echelon labor, the Scribes would have to spend too much time tending to their fleet to actually wage war effectively.

Though the Scribes are far from the largest Legion, their mechanical excellence and enormous mobility enables them to use their strength with calculated precision, concentrating and dispersing their warriors with great alacrity. With proper coordination and well considered battle plans, one Marine can do the work of many.